Go Ugly Early with Sam Sethi

James Bishop [: 00:00:05

senter Sam Sethi. Launched in: 2018

James Bishop [: 00:01:10

I'm your host, James Bishop, and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is Keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Let's begin proceedings. Hi, Sam. Thanks for haunting the show today.

Sam Sethi [: 00:01:53

You're very welcome indeed.

James Bishop [: 00:01:55

Let's go right back to the beginning. Why did you want to make a podcast in the 1st place? What's the origin story of the show?

Sam Sethi [: 00:02:01

So I was a radio DJ, and I was doing an eighties music show, local radio. And somebody said, look, hey, you know, why don't you come and do this with me? And I thought, yeah, great. And after you've played Shalimar 50 times. You really don't wanna play it again. So I decided that actually technology was something I loved. For those who may know me, I I studied TechCrunch Europe, and I've been a technologist and someone who loves technology for years. So I wanted to do a radio show that included technology people. And because those shows have to be recorded for Ofcom reasons, I suddenly had a recording, and I went, well, what do I do with this recording? And I had no idea how to do a podcast.

Sam Sethi [: 00:02:45

do I stick it? How do I get a: 100000

James Bishop [: 00:03:08

So this was, what,: 2017

Sam Sethi [: 00:03:12

Yeah. It's very, very early.

James Bishop [: 00:03:13

So you really did just sort of figure it out. You weren't copying other shows or inspired by, oh, I really wanna make a show like the daily or

Sam Sethi [: 00:03:22

Now I think back, the person who I probably tried to copy the most was Leah Laporte from the This Week in Tech. That would probably be what I was thinking of. Could I build a technology show about what's currently going on As an interview show, and that was the basis for what I was trying to do.

James Bishop [: 00:03:41

Do you know or do you remember what you hoped to achieve?

Sam Sethi [: 00:03:44

It was more about building reputation. So it was a learning curve, Building reputation and re reusability of my time. So the the radio show didn't just die on the vine. You know, it went out to Three cats and 1 dog on Marlo Radio, which no one listens to. Instead, I could then fundamentally put it out as a podcast, across all the different directories. Getting that recording, editing. The 1st editing I ever did was with with Audacity. It was awful.

Sam Sethi [: 00:04:13

I was looking at wave signs going, Oh, I think that's roughly where I coughed. I think that's where the ad is. I think that's where that is. It was rubbish. I genuinely say it was rubbish. And then I discovered Descript, and my life changed.

James Bishop [: 00:04:25

I think this is a good time to talk about the fact that you actually have a new podcast and that it's going really well from strength to strength, and I think you probably took a year or so off in between 2 shows. I will say that when I reached out to you about being on the show, I was tentative about whether you would agree that it was in the graveyard or not, but it seems like it's definitely in the graveyard now. So are you able to or could you elaborate a little bit on The morning process of letting go, and has that been impacted by being part of a new successful show?

Sam Sethi [: 00:05:01

Yeah. The show that you're alluding to is Pod News with James Miss Cridland, but that didn't come around immediately. As you said, there was a window between Podnews and Santos technology. And I was enjoying, basically working with James. And again, as as anyone who listens to the 1st 3 or 4, you can go back. Their car crash radio, it was the Chuckle Call brothers, you to me. Me to you. No one knew who was doing what.

Sam Sethi [: 00:05:22

There was it was awful. And then I decided to play the dumb questionnaire And have James as the, podcast expert. So James, tell me, what's been going on this week with x, y, or zed? And then James talks, and then that works. And that's the format we've stuck to. We have a very well structured show. And at the same time, I've gone back to doing interviews in those shows as well, Which is something else I I enjoyed, and so the Sam Talks technology learning has now been brought back into what I do with Podnews.

James Bishop [: 00:05:55

Great to hear and sometimes you need to do that. The first one's a bit like a vocational degree and then you can go out and do it in the real world. If we go back to Sam Talks Technology. Let's just go back down memory lane and reflect a little bit on some of the key components of making this show, making the whole Sam Talks Technology podcast, and let's open the batting with How much time you think you spent on it? Because I'm fairly sure you were a 1 man podcast team. Is that right?

Sam Sethi [: 00:06:26

Yeah. I was a one man team. I always say that that the time it takes to to do it is the 5 p's, right, as I I use. So preparation, there's a whole time. Who am I gonna go and talk to? Then you do the actual podcast, you know, Production day. Then it's postproduction. Now I've got to edit it. Then you gotta promote it.

Sam Sethi [: 00:06:47

And then if you're lucky enough, you make a little bit of money off it, write the profit part. But the reality is, I always say, for a 1 hour show, or in my case, the 90 minute show, 2 x or 3 x time to edit it. It's crazy.

James Bishop [: 00:07:01

So at least a day an episode

Sam Sethi [: 00:07:03

Minimum. Yeah.

James Bishop [: 00:07:05

Times a 104 episodes. So over a 104 episodes, if you had to put a number on it, how much do you think you spent?

Sam Sethi [: 00:07:12

I'd say probably 5, 6 k minimum. It could be up to 10 k.

James Bishop [: 00:07:16

So quite a big investment, especially if you track that back per episode. Yeah. Let's say worst case scenario, spent a £1,000 an episode or £500 an So

Sam Sethi [: 00:07:26

I'd say £500 an episode would be yeah.

James Bishop [: 00:07:29

And that's not including your time? Exactly. What are your most embarrassing or cringeworthy stories from making Sam Talks Technology as a podcast? Austin.

Sam Sethi [: 00:07:36

I have 2 very good ones. 1, I was asked to interview the CEO of IBM. I'd managed to get the interview. I was absolutely gobsmacked that this person had agreed, but I was super chuffed. And in my excitement, I forgot to hit the record button at the beginning of the interview. And there we are. We're chatting away, and we're having a great time. And the interview, I thought, was going really well.

Sam Sethi [: 00:07:59

And then I looked down, and I noticed That there's no recording going on. And I my little face just dropped. And I look at this guy who has given me 45 minutes of his time, which I begged Boris and Deal to get. And I've got to I had to say to him, I'm so so sorry, but I forgot to hit the record button. Could we start again? He was gracious enough to do it, but my god, I I wanted the world enough, you know, a hole to open up and swallow me. So, yeah, that was one of them.

James Bishop [: 00:08:29

It's happened to all of us. I just frantically checked that this is recording as you said that, but that has happened to everyone at least once. It's It's just a rite of passage, I think.

Sam Sethi [: 00:08:39

Never happens twice. Never happens twice.

James Bishop [: 00:08:41

What's the worst piece of podcasting advice you've ever got?

Sam Sethi [: 00:08:44

The worst piece of podcasting advice? That's a good one. That's a good one. I've never really thought of that. I guess it's spending loads and loads of money on very expensive equipment that actually you don't need. So As much as you can get good mics, you don't have to go and get a Shure MV 7 top of the range when you do your 1st podcast. Right? That is not the thing to do. Right?

James Bishop [: 00:09:07

Spend that money learning how to tell a story. It will get you a lot further.

Sam Sethi [: 00:09:10

Exactly. And I have an expression which is called go ugly early, Which is just get on with it because the first 3 or 4 will never be perfect.

James Bishop [: 00:09:18

Onto maybe more difficult to talk about topics. Why did your podcast die?

Sam Sethi [: 00:09:23

Died because I got bored. I got bored because the original goal was to learn about podcasting. I'd achieved that. The original Gold was to connect with a whole host of people. I'd achieved that. It was getting harder to find more interesting Guests. And so you go from a weekly show, which is what it was. Do you wanna go to a biweekly because you weren't finding guests? Or do you wanna go to a monthly show? And I was getting to that point where I was go, oh, no.

Sam Sethi [: 00:09:50

I don't know if I want it. And then I was getting PR companies suggesting people to me, and you know that you've really gone down the wrong rabbit hole When that happened. So I was like, no. I didn't want to try and flog a dead horse fundamentally. I was getting bored. The 90 minutes of editing or the 3 hours of editing for the 90 minute show was getting longer, and it just was getting less interesting for me. And I wanted to move on, which I did. So, Yeah.

Sam Sethi [: 00:10:16

I stopped.

James Bishop [: 00:10:17

When you say I was at the point where I had publicists and PR companies reaching out and you know at that point that you've gone in the wrong direction. What do you mean?

Sam Sethi [: 00:10:27

PR people generally coming to you means that, You know, you you've got on someone's radar. That's great. Don't get me wrong. But it means that, you know, that they're just seeing you as a vehicle to slot someone in that may not even be Appropriate to your audience. And if you start taking those people in because you might make 50 PM at Mars Bar or whatever it is from that, we might make nothing. But I just remembered I did one of those interviews, and I remember the whole of the interview going, I don't even know why I'm talking to you. I have no interest in your product. I'm shilling this for no reason.

Sam Sethi [: 00:11:00

And I'm sitting here listening to someone chomp their chops about their whatever product is they wanted to market and sell to me, Which is what they were doing it for. And and that was so obvious to everyone listening that a, I was disengaged, and b, that this person was selling. So that was a whole bad episode in itself.

James Bishop [: 00:11:18

Thank you for sharing your experience of that. And I can say from my experience that the work that you put in to find a guest that will serve your audience the best or help to take your audience on an ongoing journey that's related to you and what you're interested in is so worthwhile rather than just taking the easy out of someone who approaches you because, you know, there's nearly always an ulterior motive. There have been occasions where I've had to step in and tell someone to stop talking about their product because they say the name of their own product or book every other sentence and that's Not the point of it. Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host James Bishop. Coming up, we get into the wise decision Sam made a little too late and as always I'll decide whether the podcast should be brought back from the dead or forever laid to rest. But first I wanted to find out what aspects of the podcast Sam wished he'd focused more of his energy on. Let's hear what he has to say.

Sam Sethi [: 00:12:28

Editing, editing it down. I think I wish I'd focus more energy on. I think, taking what I think was quite a flubby 90 minutes. I could have probably got that closer to an hour. I think 90 minutes is too long if it's just Two people talking for the full 90 minutes. If you're breaking it up like we do with Podnews with different people, different stories, different interviews in this show. And, of course, at the time, there was no concept of chapters and chapterization within your podcast. So, now that you've got chapters, if you don't like a certain part, you just go to the next bit that you want and you want to listen to.

Sam Sethi [: 00:13:07

Whereas in the Early days within the editing, there was no concept. There was ideally 3 tags that just didn't really work. And it was just this 90 minute block wedge of noise.

James Bishop [: 00:13:19

Editorial to something that once you do it and you embrace it, it really makes a difference. It's great to hear the fact that for your new podcast, you have a really tight script, and you're cutting the fat. You're getting rid of the bits that are not necessary. You know, one of the statistics that I'm a big fan of in analytics is your average listener duration, which is a stat that you can most easily get from Apple Podcasts, and it shows you in graph from where your listeners are dropping off, which is, I think, a really important piece of data. To me, it's more valuable than your number of downloads because You're seeing how much of your episodes people are listening to, and you can often spot patterns where you can then change the structure of your episode in the edit in postproduction. That means that people are listening to more, and there are obviously good reasons that you would wanna do that. All the obvious stuff.

Sam Sethi [: 00:14:13

Yeah. I I think if you, as a podcast creator, remember one thing. You are Being given someone else's time and attention, make use of that, and don't abuse that. Because that's when you get it wrong. And I I hate podcast shows that go, oh, Jibes, what did you do last week? I went out last night, and I played dance, and I had a curry, and I blah blah blah. And that's nothing to do with the show, right, that I've tuned in for. And I'm like, stop wasting my time.

James Bishop [: 00:14:44

I hear that so often. It's the thing that people say they hate, but then the thing that loads of hosts want to do because it makes them sound natural or relaxed store, and that apparently is entertaining.

Sam Sethi [: 00:14:54

Well, James and I do it right at the end of our show. We we have a section which says, James, what happened for you this week? Or or Sam, what happened for you? And there are genuine elements of that that are interesting. Like, James is just going off to Mexico this week, or or so, James, where are you going? I mean, pod Podex Mexico. Right? I'm doing this. What okay. So it's there is value in asking that question.

James Bishop [: 00:15:16

The answers to your exactly that. The answers to your questions when you put it in the end of your show are all editorially sound as in they have some relation to the listener. They aren't, oh, I've got to go and get some washing tablets from Tesco tonight because no one cares.

Sam Sethi [: 00:15:32

Exactly.

James Bishop [: 00:15:33

Sam, I think if my research serves me right, that you recorded a whole load of episodes and did all of the guest finding and the recording bit and then stacked them up in the edit. And then I think that probably got a bit overwhelming, and you just didn't edit them ever. Is that what happened?

Sam Sethi [: 00:15:56

Yeah. No. That's exactly what happened. I ended up getting overly excited by getting maybe 2 or 3 People agreeing to speak in a week, ending up with 2 or 3 podcasts to try and get out the front door. And then as you said, felt very overwhelmed.

James Bishop [: 00:16:11

What do you think with some really good decisions that you made, but maybe too late that other people can adopt earlier.

Sam Sethi [: 00:16:18

I think going to find Sponsors, getting people who could support the show or at least give me the money that would justify the time I was using On the show. And so, yeah. We did get some sponsors towards the end, and that was great to have them. But at the end of the day, Having sponsors meant that I could, at least, when I was sitting there for the few hours that I was doing it, felt at least I was earning some value from it.

James Bishop [: 00:16:45

And that was probably one of those things that you were a bit apprehensive about doing, and then you did it and you get over that first hurdle or onto that 1st rung of the ladder, and you're like, oh, actually, this is nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. And as soon as you've got that first value for your show, whether that be a £100 or a £100,000. At least you've got a starting point.

Sam Sethi [: 00:17:07

Yeah. And I think what's the expression? You can't be it until you see it. Right? Which is fundamentally the same thing. No other sponsor thinks they sponsor your show unless they see another sponsor's gone there first. So even if it's 50 p in a miles per hour from that 1st sponsor, which it wasn't, but if it was, that still Gave me the credibility to go to another sponsor and say someone else has seen value in what I'm doing and is sponsoring me. Would you see value too and sponsor me too?

James Bishop [: 00:17:35

Sam, did you mourn its passing, or were you relieved to see Sam Talks Technology die?

Sam Sethi [: 00:17:41

I must have mourned it a little bit because you do put a passion And, and a time into something. Anything that you nurture, you will feel a mourning for when they've gone. So yes, I must have done if I reflect back, which would also describe why I thought I might bring it back at one point, thinking that I could resurrect it Because I felt that there were other interesting people I could then go and talk to, outside of podcasting. Because sometimes, when we're in the world of Just talking podcasting, podcasting. And there was a part of me that said, I'd really like to go and talk about AI. And I I did an event on AI, And and I'd really like to go and talk about something else and something else because I have a a broader technical interest. And so that was where I did think about, let's resurrect it and have a vehicle for doing it. And I had a sponsor as well at the beginning before I resurrected it.

Sam Sethi [: 00:18:38

So that was gonna happen. And then I just went back to, this is just gonna be double, triple The work to keep the quality bar high and also do Podnews and all the interviews I do there, plus the interviews for Sam Talks Technology and the editing. No. I'm not doing it. And I I parked it.

James Bishop [: 00:18:57

Sounds like you were relieved overall to see it pass.

Sam Sethi [: 00:19:00

I think I was relieved overall the 2nd time to See it pass because that was when I finally put it to bed. The first time, I mothballed it thinking I will go back to it at some point. And then the 2nd time, having reflected, I went, no. This is not gonna be the thing I do again.

James Bishop [: 00:19:17

From everything you've learned making Sam Talks Technology. What piece of advice would you give to a podcaster on the road to making their 1st episode?

Sam Sethi [: 00:19:26

It's something I didn't do. Listen to other podcasts that you want to aspire to be. Right? 1st and foremost. Because If they're a good podcaster that you're aspiring to be, they've probably gone through all the mistakes that you will make. They've probably come up with some really good structure to the show. That sounds easy because they've made it sound easy, because they've actually put a flow into the show themselves. So that's a good starting point. And I think, again, you know, one of the other things I'd say is just understand what you're trying to achieve with it as well.

Sam Sethi [: 00:20:00

Don't just do it because you can, because you can get a quick 90 minute mic and set it up and talk to somebody. Understand Why at the end of 50 episodes, you're still doing it? And I think that's probably the hard questions you have to ask yourself in the beginning Before you actually sit down and actually record.

James Bishop [: 00:20:19

There's some great wisdom in there, and these are questions that when I work as a producer on a podcast, I often ask. One of them is, to your first point, is what other shows have you listened to? What did you like, and what did you dislike about them? Because those can become the building blocks for what you're doing. Another is what are you trying to achieve? And one of my favorites, which is a really difficult question but it's so important to think about is, How does this podcast end? We're not all Joe Rogan. We're not all signing up to just do podcasts indefinitely forever. I know I'm definitely not. So what is the plan for how it's coming to a close? Because if you can understand that, then you can shape the journey on the way, and it gives you, the listener, guests, all sorts of other people involved in a project, some framework for where it's going. And I think that is a really good thing to do alongside working out what you're trying to achieve.

Sam Sethi [: 00:21:13

One of the other things I wish I'd done was created series, which would have given me Pregnant pauses in the podcast that would allow me to do what you just said. End the series, take 3 months off, Forget about it. Don't have that pressure of that weekly, weekly beat, and then come back with series 2, series 3, series 4. And maybe even change the series structure because it's a new series, or change the the way that you actually do the whole show. So I would if I look back again, one of the other things probably in hindsight with knowledge, which is always easy, have said, yeah, instead of killing it, Maybe you've done 25 shows, called it series 1, stopped, done another series having taken some time out. You know, that again is just hindsight.

James Bishop [: 00:22:01

And a much debated topic because frequency of posting is a thing you should really think about. Building limited series is a thing that people don't embrace enough. Make a show that's 6 episodes or 8 episodes and Treat it like it's a body of work, and don't feel like you're obliged to make ongoing indefinite episodes. If there's a story you want to tell or a journey you want to go on or something you want to or make it and be proud that you made that body of work. We talked about Ricky Gervais earlier on. He's well known for this. He made The Office. It's 3 series of 6 episodes, and that's it.

James Bishop [: 00:22:39

He then made extras. It's the same. He then made a different Comedy. He made a whole load of different bodies of work that are finite. He didn't feel an obligation to turn it into a long running TV series that goes on for decades.

Sam Sethi [: 00:22:56

Which is also one of the other things that I learned along the journey. Your listeners aren't there actually to listen to your guest. They're there to listen to you, which is a really weird thing to understand. You think that if I get the greatest guest, then my listeners will be excited, and then and they will. That that's always a good thing to do. But, actually, your fans rather than your listeners are the people who will turn up whether you in the case of Ricky Gervais, we turned up to the office. He stopped it. We mourned the end of The Office.

Sam Sethi [: 00:23:31

But then when he came up with his next show, we were fans of Ricky Gervais. So we then followed his next vehicle And then the vehicle after. And as a podcaster, sometimes you have to accept that it's you that they are coming to listen to rather than the guest, and that's something that as well I think people forget.

James Bishop [: 00:23:50

That's super interesting. I actually wrote on my pad early on in our conversation when you were telling me about getting Sam Talks technology off the ground, about the importance of building brand and how it's not just these episodes. There is a brand around it. You need to understand who you are and the role that you're playing, and what you're saying about people turning up for you is so important. And in the words of someone who has done that whole personal brand build so well, We have a closing tradition on this show where we ask you, if your podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?

Sam Sethi [: 00:24:28

Play it again, Sam.

James Bishop [: 00:24:29

Oh, amazing. Perfect. I love that. So that just leaves us with the task of making a final judgment about SamTalks technology. Should it be resurrected? Are we sending it to the podcast, Heavenly Afterlife? And I think we will both agree that on this occasion, Sam Talks technology should stay firmly where it is in the graveyard.

Sam Sethi [: 00:24:55

I do. I agree. Yeah. That's where it will go.

James Bishop [: 00:24:58

I don't see that there's anything from the show that really stands out as being a vehicle for bringing it back. It's not an extraordinary format. You have a new platform form for building your own character. You have a new show and a new way of expressing yourself in a more enjoyable setup. So I think it was really good for learning and really good for understanding how you make a podcast and going on this journey of discovery. But, yeah, I think this one should stay in the grave. Don't bring it back.

Sam Sethi [: 00:25:31

Thank you. Hope you won't be

James Bishop [: 00:25:32

I really appreciate your time. Thank you for joining me today and giving SamTalks Technology the service or memorial that it really deserved.

Sam Sethi [: 00:25:40

Thanks, James.

James Bishop [: 00:25:46

So Sam talks technology rest in peace. I think you'll agree dear listeners It's been an emotional but hugely insightful send off. Let's take a moment to reflect on the lessons from this service. Number 1, listen to other shows for inspiration. Not listening to other podcasts is a trap many people who come from other walks of media such as TV and radio often fall into. They assume if it worked there, it'll work here but it's important to appreciate the subtle differences from one format to another. So do your homework. Number 2.

James Bishop [: 00:26:22

Don't spend all your money on fancy equipment. As Sam said Go ugly early. True. Sound quality is important, but nothing beats a good story. Making and marketing a good podcast can be expensive. So budget sensibly and know your priorities. Last but not least understand your motivations and stick to them have a reason why this will keep you on track and help you avoid the temptations of watering down your content for a bit of cash or cheap exposure. At the last service, we were haunted by Samantha Hornsby.

James Bishop [: 00:26:57

Host of the show What the World Thinks. Samantha shared her story of wearing too many hats at once. How she learned the hard way about the value of niching and we discussed the main learnings she'll be taking into her next to creative project. It was a great memorial if you haven't already go have a listen. As we bring this service to a close we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode to someone you think will find it valuable and if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off. We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard at [onfineplay.com](http://onfineplay.com/). A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible.

James Bishop [: 00:27:43

Kasar Farouzia was the producer and editor Conor Foley was our assistant producer and Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davy for the inspiration. In parting let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment but instead let us focus on the light that Sam Talks Technology brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop and this is Podcast Graveyard.