The Anguish of Creativity with Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago

James Bishop [: 00:00:06

Santiago. Launched in August: 2022

James Bishop [: 00:01:08

Welcome to this service. I'm your host, James Bishop, and and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Let's begin proceedings. Hi Guillermo, thanks for haunting the show today.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:01:53

Hi James, thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

James Bishop [: 00:01:56

Thank you for joining. So tell me, what is your podcast about and why did you

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:02:01

want to make it? Each episode is a small interview with a person that have a little anguish, a little intrusive thought that is a constant in the daily life. And in the same way, you can tell that They are not living the fully life they can be living because of this small intrusive thought.

James Bishop [: 00:02:21

And why did you want to make the show?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:02:23

I was very inspired, by a podcast that already exists called This is Actually Happening. I don't know if you know that show, but it's a one story show. And it talks about trauma. It talks about trauma and it's a interview when you can only hear the answers of the person that it's been interview, but you cannot hear the person that is interviewing. So I really find very fascinating that format because We were very used to that. The format concept is like, you make a question and then you hear the answer. But the edit in that show was very interesting that subtract the interviewer and the questions, and all it was about the edit, and all it was about the person that it was being interviewed. And that show, it only features people that have lived trauma.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:03:09

And unfortunately for me, I have lived a traumatic situation, but fortunately for my career, I'll leave it so I can pitch myself to that, podcast. So I was featured in that show, and I can Discover how was made, like how the interview was made, the preinterview was made, even to leave all the process And then to hear the end result, it was very fulfilling for me and very, like, inspiring. So once that I joined that podcast and have my own little episode. I was like, maybe I can do something like this. Maybe I I am not interested in portraying myself an as an interviewer, But my skills is as an audio designer. So I was like, I'm going to interview some people about an interesting, concept or topic, and I'm going to Put on display all my audio design abilities.

James Bishop [: 00:04:00

Amazing. I love that you took inspiration and experience from another podcast. And I said to you just before we started recording that your podcast, The Little English Tapes, is beautifully made. I think that is probably something that you took from the other show as well.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:04:19

Yes and no. Because the other, The other inspiration that I have is one called the hotline secrets. I don't know if you have of the secret hotline of LoRa and radio. And I was inspired by the concept of This Is Actually Happening, but the audio design of another show. I I made like a Frankenstein. I I took different parts of my favorite podcast and make it just 1 product, created by me.

James Bishop [: 00:04:43

I love that. And what you've ended up with is a beautiful project that's really thoughtfully put together and stands out and is different and has a compelling storyline, but also a really nice audio composition.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:04:58

Thank you so much, James.

James Bishop [: 00:05:00

So when you were starting out, what were your expectations from the podcast?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:05:04

Of course, that I knew that producing a podcast, it was very difficult, but this was my very first podcast that I produced. The interesting thing of this project is that I have the opposite of imposter syndrome. Like, I knew I was good at audio design, but I have never had done it. So I was like, okay, I have to create something that I can show to people and that people can know through evidence that I am good as an audio designer. So that was the main goal of this, to know how much I'm I am capable of doing.

James Bishop [: 00:05:36

So your expectations when you started the show, you wanted to do this because you just felt compelled that you were great at making audio. Is that right? Yes? I'd love to learn more about your experience of actually making the podcast, the highs and the lows. And I have some questions because, of course, you put all the episodes out on one day, and then we Yes. We didn't hear any more. But before we get to that, how much time do you think you put into it? How what was going into making each episode in terms of time?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:06:08

In time, I am very fast editing. So I think the interview with people, it took me like an hour. Then the edit of that interview, it took me like an hour or 2 maybe. And the part that was the more difficult is the scoring, like to creating the music. I don't even have the time because it took me a lot of days And a lot of frustration. Like so even it was just a couple of hours a day, for me, it feel longer. Like, I was spending a lot of hours creating music from scratch.

James Bishop [: 00:06:38

Oh, wow. A pure labor of love. You made the music and everything. Yes. Oh, wow. So how long do you think each episode was taking in total?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:06:46

Per episode, 8 hours. So So if I made 5 episode, could be like a 40 hour job.

James Bishop [: 00:06:51

And what about money? Did you spend any money making it?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:06:54

Yes. The only Thing that I spent, it was very expensive that it was the synthesizer to make the music. It was like $1,000, and I never use it again.

James Bishop [: 00:07:04

Wow. That is a big investment.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:07:06

Yeah.

James Bishop [: 00:07:07

And where did you find guests from?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:07:09

My colleagues. Like my call this start the the thing that is sparked the idea is I have the idea to make this podcast, but then in my job, it was related to podcast. So one of the initiatives they did is like, oh, you, we want you to make your own little podcast because we want as an enterprise, as a company, For you to understand what is the challenges to make a podcast. So I was the only ones people in the company that took it very seriously. So I took that leverage to start to approaching colleagues and say, hey. Do you want me to to be featured on my podcast? And I think I asked To 8 to 10 people, and only 5 say yes.

James Bishop [: 00:07:49

Well, that's a lesson in itself, isn't it? What do you think the biggest obstacle you faced was when trying to make the podcast?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:07:55

People, yes, are not willing to share the most honest truths. Like, if you got a guest that it's not willing To actually put all the weaknesses and vulnerabilities out there, the interview is not going to be good. So the difficult part was that I am, I was at first aiming to pick people, like, trying to even reach to the most intimate details. And I know that people is not very, like, eager to do that. So I start to looking for the small languages and the small interviews that it's not risk for the people that it's being interviewed, but at the same time, it feels authentic to the listener.

James Bishop [: 00:08:37

So it's really about finding the balance between an interesting story for the listener and somebody who's willing to give enough of themselves to make it work.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:08:48

Absolutely.

James Bishop [: 00:08:48

I listened to an episode about a lady who has ugly feet and I felt she was very honest in her openness with her own relationship with her feet. Yeah. It was something that I thought was somebody. Not everybody would do that. Not everyone would speak so openly and so clearly about something like that.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:09:15

Yes. It was very admiring.

James Bishop [: 00:09:17

Are there any really embarrassing stories or cringe worthy stories you have from making the podcast?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:09:24

I think every time that I got rejected, when I pitched the project to another person and I was like, hey. I want you to invite you to be in the podcast. It's going to be very well made. I'm going to be, like, taking care of you in the interview. And to have that no when the people say to you, no, I'm not going to do it, I felt not embarrassed, but at the same time, I was like, oh, what I if if it the thing is that I am not selling the project right or it is because of them, they don't want to share them. So it was kinda weird afterwards that I was have to say somewhere about it. I understand that you don't want to be part of the project, but I think that It was kinda weird to just get the no, but at the same time, I'm very grateful that they did not, waste my time to give me, like, a bad interview and just to say no at first.

James Bishop [: 00:10:08

Did you have any disaster stories like from recording the podcast? Any major mistakes or mishaps?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:10:15

The most frustrating part about the music, It was like, for me, I stopped to enjoying the process when I put myself in a position To develop an ability that I haven't done it before. Like making the music start to stressing me out a lot because I I start the feeling that if a professional people that make music listen to this, maybe they're going to listen the podcast instead of what what the hell am I on listening in the background? That Sounds and music. So I start to feel very vulnerable in my in my part to display an ability that I, actually, I don't even know if I have the ability to create music from scratch or only make the audio design of of pieces that already exist.

James Bishop [: 00:10:56

How many versions of the music were there? Did you do any really bad versions to start with. Yes. And people said, what is this? Try again.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:11:04

Yes. Exactly. And even there are not, like, full pieces. There are, like, bytes of music that I arranged together because I was not able to produce a full song.

James Bishop [: 00:11:14

I guess you took on a 2nd challenge really of making music as well as making a podcast which really added to the work. Yes. What was the worst piece of podcasting advice that you ever got?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:11:26

I think the worst and it's not an advice. It's more like a best practice. It's like to aiming to the big audiences. So looking for that your success is related to the number of downloads. Sometimes you just have to reach a niche and do not want to be the number 1 podcast because If you are aiming to like everyone, you're starting to do some not generic, but not risky stuff. You are not going to experiment that much. You are wanting to do something that it's very easy for people to digest, and you start to go like a way to maybe Create some very creative stuff, like all your creativeness is going to be, like, related to the things that already exist, that the people are already used to listen.

James Bishop [: 00:12:15

What you've done there in giving me your worst piece of podcasting ICE is also given a great piece of podcasting advice. I think it's absolutely true that a podcast for everybody is a podcast for nobody. There is a lot of podcasting advice out there that is about make sure you find a big audience and get as many downloads as possible, then make all your decisions based on how many downloads you and that is absolutely not true. Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host James Bishop. Coming up, we get into some of the worst decisions Guillermo made. And as always, we reveal whether the podcast should be brought back from the dead all forever laid to rest. But first, I wanted to find out why Guillermo's podcast died. Let's hear what he has to say.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:13:10

I think because it doesn't have like a formula. Like, if I can rewind, the thing that I will do is to make everything more Easy to replicate, like a step by step process. It's like you get your interviewee, you make the questions, you edit, and then you put the music that is already made, or maybe to create just 1 song and maybe edit it. But I try to to use every episode As an original piece of audio, and it was very difficult to replicate that on weekly basis.

James Bishop [: 00:13:45

You are making Star Wars every week? Exactly.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:13:48

Yeah.

James Bishop [: 00:13:49

Okay. And that then becomes far too consuming of your time, but also your energy, your creative, like, expression and everything in between.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:14:00

Exactly.

James Bishop [: 00:14:01

You released all the episodes on the same day. Yes. Tell me about that decision.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:14:06

I start to take in a lot of it could be said that risky decisions and the strategy. Like, if you see the cover, the artwork, it doesn't have the title. If you hear the episodes, you do not hear an intro, and there is no credits. Like, I try to be as mysterious as it could be, like, because I want the people to really end the episode and almost say, like, what What the hell I I listen to? Like, I really want the people to do a little bit of the job, like, start to research and to read the credits, to read the description. And I want to for them to have, like, this hunger of I want more and I want more. And to feel even like a secret that they just discover all at once. So the strategy there, it was because I wasn't intended to be number 1 chart and and do a strategy for promotion. I was like, I'm going to break all the rules that people advise to do while line launching a podcast.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:15:03

So it was Obviously, this does not, reflected in lessons, but at the same time, I was like, okay. If there's no strategy, I'm going to publish everyone at once. And at at first, it's going to was a full season of 12 episodes, but it ended up only being 5 episodes because I only have 5 interview.

James Bishop [: 00:15:24

I love that you're so honest about the fact that you were trying to create something that was mysterious but also by its nature high risk.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:15:34

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

James Bishop [: 00:15:36

I guess the combination of that and the challenge of not having a blueprint or a structure that you could replicate is what led to it dying because I'm I'd imagine that whilst it was niche, you also needed a little bit of traction to justify what you were outputting in terms of energy and resource. So was there a time even though you dropped them on the same day you haven't made any since. So was there a time where you knew it was the end?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:16:01

Yes. And it was that time when I published those 5 episodes and I feel relief. I was just like, okay, I'm done. Like I was not eager to keep producing. So even the little anguish start to become an anguish for me. So it like a burden. And the other thing is, like, I I, right now, use my time to be a full time producer, like professional producer of podcast. When you transform your hobby into your main job.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:16:33

You do not want to do it unless you get paid. So that is the reason that I was like, okay. So if there are other projects that I'm going to be paid to do it. The language is going to be something that I am not going to be, receive money to do it. And it's a very tricky thing because you transform the thing that you love into the thing you are have to do every single day to earn money.

James Bishop [: 00:16:56

So really, the little anguish tapes became your little anguish?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:17:00

Absolutely.

James Bishop [: 00:17:00

Many people have said to me, will Podcast Graveyard end up in the Podcast Graveyard? What are some of the worst decisions you made when making the podcast?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:17:11

The worst decision, the music, Definitely. Like, I rearranged this strategy. Like, the thing that I will do is just to make 1 piece of music, edit it, and do not try to make an original score to each episode. And the other thing is not going into for looking for interviews 1 by 1 and try to post it in a Reddit forum or something like that. Like, try to people to pitch to me instead of I pitch to people. So I make, like, to to try to have more guests open open the invitation and not be selecting case by case.

James Bishop [: 00:17:45

It allows you to have the flexibility to decide if you want to outreach to someone specific because you want them, but also have that inbound opportunity as well. It just takes off a bit of pressure. What good decisions did you make, but a little too late? Like, what did you learn? And you're like, oh, I should have done that differently, but then you didn't see it until it was near the end.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:18:07

Once that you get the yes, When you they have the microphone in front of them, they are like an open book. Like I actually thought that it's going to be very Hard to pull the answers. But once I had the people in front of me, the people, like, open all the little languages, and you can even listen in episode that The episode start very light and then it turned turned a little bit darker because people start to get very comfortable and they start to to even rebuilding stuff that they like, I can tell they didn't want to rebuild that be, before the interview. And once the day during the interview, they open up like books.

James Bishop [: 00:18:44

That such an amazing insight that is completely true, and I've seen it so many times, but doesn't get talked about that often. Why do you think it happens?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:18:53

I have to use my experience in the, in the podcast this is actually happening. When I was with the interviewer And I have, like, my my answers were very crafted. Once that you're in front of that person, you cannot lie. And it's not that people is lying. But when you have, like, a real honest talk, it's very hard just to not give the answer that your heart is telling you. You know, like, it's harder to lie than to be honest and to just get done with the interview. So it's that pressure, that you the other people can tell when you are Try to lie or to try to hide the facts. So for your mind, it takes a lot of energy just to craft a beautiful answer instead of just displaying the truth.

James Bishop [: 00:19:36

And I think another great tip that goes on top of what you just said is as an interviewer if you can stay quiet for as long as possible. I'm renowned for interrupting, but if you can stay quiet for as long as possible, the other person will talk and talk and talk, and nearly always at the end is when the gold is, that the best bit is nearly always right at the end. The thing where they go, oh, and, oh, and another thing, and then they tell you something amazing because they suddenly feel comfortable and they're relaxed and they're focused and they're engaged, and that's when all of their protective walls go down and they really open up. You can get some of the best answers just by being quiet and waiting to see what people saying they don't even know they're gonna say it.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:20:20

Exactly. And the other thing that I learned is that the interviewer is like asking you the same thing in a different way. And you start to give answers, and and the 5th time that they ask you the same is the one that you have the the honest truth answer. It's like when they ask you not in the first one, in the twice, it's like in the 4th or 5th time is when the people are like, even I don't know if they're tired. Like, okay. This is the real truth.

James Bishop [: 00:20:49

What aspect of the podcast do you wish you had focused more energy on? Definitely

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:20:55

strategy of promotion, because as you said, one thing is you try to reach the number 1. That is one thing. But the other thing is to promote your work Even when you're not trying to get to the number 1, but you want to want to have listens. So even if I don't want to have, like, or even I cannot how, like, a massive campaign, promotional campaign. I should try to focus more energy in promoting the work Even in the mental health space, because this podcast start to become like, topics of mental health, like how can you live a quality life Eliminating the those still language that you have. So the thing that I should try to do is once all the production work has done, Try to go to firms on the Internet and just to to publish like, hey, you can listen this podcast that it's about mental health or trauma or little languages, like, Just to put a little bit of effort promoting it because I do not use any type of effort to promoting the work.

James Bishop [: 00:21:51

You did no marketing at all?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:21:53

No. Just with my colleagues. Like, it was like, oh, I produce this or with my friends. But I did not submit it to Apple. I did not submit it to Spotify. Like, I didn't try because Since I know that I wasn't going to produce more episodes, for me, it was like I published the same day and that is the day that the podcast die because I was not eager to promote it.

James Bishop [: 00:22:13

So it it was born and died on the same day? Almost.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:22:16

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

James Bishop [: 00:22:18

When you say promoted to Apple and Spotify, by the way, I think what you mean is not that you you pushed it there so people could listen, but you didn't write to them and say, could you feature the podcast?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:22:29

Is that what you mean? Exactly. Yeah. Just that Exactly.

James Bishop [: 00:22:32

Make a difference. Because I listened on Apple Podcasts, and that is where it's available now. But what you're talking about is where you submit your show to be featured on the home page.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:22:40

Exactly. Yes. It's available everywhere, but it wasn't submitted to be promoted.

James Bishop [: 00:22:44

And you wish now in retrospect that you had put a bit more time and energy into it.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:22:49

Yeah.

James Bishop [: 00:22:50

So did you mourn the fact that it's gone, or are you kind of relieved to have seen it die?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:22:57

At that time, I was very relieved. I was like almost like a check. I was like, okay. I produce a podcast. It's done. But I have, like, a grieving process, but very delayed. I was like a year from the publishing episode and that the project was done. I was like, how did I let that podcast die? And at one point, that excites me very much.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:23:18

Like, it was a a project that I was very Eager to produce and let I left it for Der. So I think I should try to fight a little bit more for it to live. So I griped the podcast, But like a year from the time that it was done.

James Bishop [: 00:23:34

I do wonder whether you're still holding on to a bit of the show, whether maybe you will find a way to bring it back, but we'll come on to that. From everything you've learned, what piece of advice would you give to someone about to start making their 1st episode.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:23:49

Okay. The thing that I will advise people is listen to a lot of podcast. Like, you have to know what it's out there, But then you have to produce a podcast that it's very hard to find. Like, try to put some original ideas out in the world. Like, we do not need another copycat of a podcast. Like, try to do something that you not only want to listen, but sometimes that a podcast that you don't even know that it could be possibly done. Like how far can you create it? Creativity can go. So be as creative as you want.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:24:25

Making podcasts is cheaper than do it TV shows or movies, And it can be as flexible as you want. You can do movies to podcast. You can do serious fiction interviews. You can Switch it up and mix it up as long as you want. Make Frankensteins and let your creativity flow.

James Bishop [: 00:24:43

Such a great piece of advice. By allowing yourself to be creatively brave, you can get so much further. So I love that advice. You absolutely did that with the little anguish tapes, did something brave. It very much feels like a creative project, which is what you did. If the podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:25:07

The anguish lasted long than the podcast.

James Bishop [: 00:25:10

Amazing and so fitting, perfect. So I think the time in the episode has come to really start to think about whether this is a podcast that should be resurrected or should be sent to the heavenly afterlife. And I'm in 2 minds here because On one hand, I don't like the idea that it caused you so much stress and sucked so much of your creative freedom. And I also think that it's a high risk project because the way you describe it is exactly how it is. It is mysterious. It doesn't have an obvious intro. It breaks all the rules. It doesn't explain, you know, who it is or why you should listen or what to BECT, and that does have a certain magic to it, but it could take a while for that to catch on, I guess.

James Bishop [: 00:26:06

The other side of it I love because unlike many of the ghosts that haunt the podcast graveyard who made a podcast because they were trying to make cheap marketing material or sell a product or whatever. You did it because you loved it, and you wanted to express your own creative freedom in audio, and I love that. I also think it's a great idea, and the actual content itself, there are some really compelling stories of people sharing their own anguish or trauma that I think are really powerful. And if I also had ugly feet like the lady in the episode that I listened to, and I don't think I do have ugly feet, but if I did, I think listening to her story would really help. So I'm sure there are people out there that with time, if they found it, it could really resonate. I guess one of the challenges is the audience may change all the time because you may be interested in one thing, but not necessarily the next. So you've got to be quite open minded you want to listen to anguish that you may relate to, but also just sort of listen to other people's suffering. And that might be a challenge, to grow an audience, but I would love to see you make another 5 or 6 episodes.

James Bishop [: 00:27:23

And I think you've learned Your biggest takeaway was about the structure. If you could put in a structure and you've now built your own original music, which is, you know, hugely impressive for 5 episodes. You could probably, I'm hoping, use 1 or 2 of those in episodes moving forward, and I guess your workflow might be might be easier. And maybe anyone that has listened to this episode of our graveyard, could find your details that we'll put in the, show notes, and reach out to you as a guest if they've got an anguish to share.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:27:59

Yeah, that would be amazing. Actually, that would be amazing.

James Bishop [: 00:28:02

Not that I'm roping you into resurrecting it.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:28:06

No, I'm very willing to resurrect it.

James Bishop [: 00:28:09

I think had you ever thought about grouping the episodes? You talked about making limited seasons. I wonder if you could make limited seasons on themes so I could know whether I was listening to them about the body or about the environment or whatever it was that they became in seasons of something so it became easier to navigate.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:28:27

Wow. Great idea. I'm going to steal that one. You can have that. A great topic. Yes. Yes. Yes.

James Bishop [: 00:28:32

But, yeah, I think that kind of thing might help just really easily shape it and give it a bit more direction. I'd love to see another sense. Yes.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:28:41

You're right. That makes completely sense.

James Bishop [: 00:28:43

What do you think? And did you think we could tempt you to resurrect the show? Absolutely. Yes. Okay. I love that. Thank you so much for haunting the show today. I've really appreciated talking to you about the little anguish tapes, and you never know. It sounds like we might hear from you in the future.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:29:01

Absolutely. And thank you so much for your time, James. I am, I'm very, Like, proud that you listened to the show, and thanks for your time.

James Bishop [: 00:29:08

No. Thank you. It's been, really enjoyable to be able to give it the send off it deserves.

Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago [: 00:29:12

Thank you.

James Bishop [: 00:29:13

Thank you. So it seems there may actually be a resurrection of the little anguish tapes I'm sure you'll agree dear listeners that would be a triumph for the show before we go let's take a moment to reflect on the lessons from this service number 1, be careful not to spread yourself too thin. Although it may be tempting to compose your own theme song with affordable products the offer great royalty free music. You have to ask yourself if it's worth the hassle especially when getting started. In podcasting as in life you have to pick your battles. Number 2, develop a template. You could apply the principle of a template to many aspects of your podcast, asked from the structure to the way you use music or to the base questions you ask. Whichever way you look at it, templates can save a lot of time as they prevent you from constantly starting over from scratch.

James Bishop [: 00:30:07

In many circumstances, they have the added benefit of providing familiarity for a listener as the content starts to take on a consistent tone and pattern. And last but not least, be creative. Guillermo's pod may be in the graveyard but you can tell he has few regrets about what he created and feels overwhelmingly positive about the experience. He's now a professional podcast producer too. So my guess would be that the mindset and creative energy he developed on the little anguish tapes help set him up for his current successes. In an era where many are trying to hack attention and success, people get caught up on the science and mathematics acts of content creation. But I think this is an important reminder not to forget about the art. At The Last Service, We Were Haunted by Jack Gazford, host of the show Jack's Chats.

James Bishop [: 00:30:58

Jack shared his cautions about not respecting the nuances of the podcast format, neglecting your audience and as we hear quite often on this show, forgetting about marketing. It was a thought provoking episode. Go and have a listen. As we bring this service to a close, we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode someone you think will find it valuable. And if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off, We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard at onefineplay.com. A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible. Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor.

James Bishop [: 00:31:41

Connor Foley was our assistant producer. And Selena Christofides and put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davey for the inspiration. In parting, let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment. But instead, let us focus on the light that the little anguish tapes brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star, leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop and this is Podcast Graveyard.